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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 18:21:15 GMT
Hey guys!
As a new owner I might be over-stepping here so if so feel free to let me know!
I think the goalie market and set-up may be a tiny flaw in both the trade market and the league.
When you have to trade a terribly good skater for a terribly bad goalie who isn't gonna help your goalie stats and only gets you starts, that's an issue.
I'm finding a lot of trade talks that happen seems to center or eventually always head towards some kind of goalie talk. The market for goalies isn't just making the trading of goalies a tad ridiculous but it's also hurting the skaters market as well. In addition to this, some owners are hoarding goalie prospects and it's also making the market skewed. Teams would be more likely to move average, good or even great goalies when they know they have at least some sort of goal-tending future. Yes I know it's not anyone's job to make sure other teams are managed correctly and have acquired goalie prospects of some sort so that they have replacements and currency coming along but I think it'd be in the leagues best interest to implement some sort of regulation to keep from goalie hoarding to happen. Plus, don't we all wanna be drafting and signing young promising high scoring sleepers and not putting the majority of our prospect base and attention to constantly be finding goalies? I haven't been here long but I can see how this issue could snowball into a goalie arms race.
In the NHL team's only need 1 starter and a back-up. Playing time, salary cap, contracts status, all create parity to be spread out among all the teams. Even with these parity creating circumstances, there isn't enough goalies to go around in the entire NHL which is made even worse in our league (yes even with 16 teams vs 31 teams). Our league doesn't have such natural parity, a team could literally have 3 #1 goalies which is an extremely effective strategy but there isn't enough goalies to go around in the league. Freeing up the market would make the league much more flexible and much more fun.
There would be a lot more trades and fluidity if teams weren't scared that if they trade even an average goalie that they won't be able to fill that position, whether that be grabbing a free agent goalie or making a trade for a borderline NHL goalie that won't cost an arm and a leg.
As one of the new dispersal draft owners I was lucky enough along with the other 2 new owners to have great options at goalie, I'm not worried about my goaltending. Having said that, if I was in this league and had no goalies and there being so few in the league and no accurate way of predicting how the prospects will turn out or if there will be roster spots available for these prospects to break through, I'd hate to have to trade a franchise forward or d-man in a package for an average starting goalie.
I get that it's the way it is but I also think there could be some steps taken to free up the market and create a better system for goaltending in the league.
1. Limit teams to 3 goalies max on their main roster including on the bench. (I'm not sure if this is already a rule)
2. As mentioned before on a different thread, lower the age of the goalie prospects to 25.
These 2 rules alone would open up:
Greiss/Halak Khudobin Montoya Pavelec Kinkaid Howard Stalock Nilsson Darling Bachman Kuemper Hellberg Berube Kevin Boyle Charles Williams Mac Carruth Garipov Gudlevskis Desmith Armalis Mcintyre Mazanec Rittich McCollum Campbell Coreau Ortio Poulin Visentin Ganteig Copley Domingue O'Connor
There is some value there but no one would be losing anyone significant or team changing. Teams could trade goalies away and pick up a goalie that can get you some rare, mediocre starts or fill in for injury.
Next
3. A 3 goalie prospect max
This one will be conversational but it'd free up the goalie prospect hoard and owners won't be signing the 5th round goalie prospect in the latest draft and we'll see more emphasis on skater prospects which represent a ton more of the players in the league. It'll create more parity in goalie prospects which would then lead to more goalie parity in the long run.
I know this couldn't be done right away cause teams have put a lot of assets and time into some of their goalie prospects but if you gave each team a certain amount of time to get to this number many goalie prospects will have graduated to free agents or can be released anyways. Say, in 2 years everyone work their way down to 3, would that be so bad?
Anyways guys, this is just for discussion and debate. You have all been in this league longer than me so I may be WAY off!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 19:01:20 GMT
Quick stats
Goalie prospects already with teams: 110 Goalies on rosters: 57
little extreme, no?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 20:00:00 GMT
Thanks for this Josh. Its an interesting topic, and a good one to raise.
In my view, moving to 3 goalies max on the roster would be a good change in some regards - as you raise, it would free up goalies on the wire and reduce the value of shitty backups who in most other leagues sit on the wire all season the same way shitty 3rd line Dmen do in this league. On the other hand, it would take away the flexibility for managers to manage their roster in various ways (for example, Dallas had a pretty successful season rotating through a bunch of no-name goalies, and keeping 4 on the roster at all times, where as Minnesota basically ran with 2 goalies all season). But if push came to shove, I would vote in favour of that change.
Bringing the prospect age to 25 makes sense to me as a good first step, as discussed in other post, where I think a majority of owners agreed.
Having a limit of 3 goalie prospects seems pretty extreme. I'm in another league with a 6 goalie prospect limit, which sometimes feels like too few.
In any event, I think the problem/issue you're getting at is that goalie stats are weighted way too heavily compared to player stats. Maybe a different way to go is to add player stats or take away goalie stats to re-balance it out.
anyways, those are just my thoughts. I'll be interested in seeing what other managers think.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 20:07:58 GMT
Yah, maybe my views on the limiting of prospects is quite extreme the more I think about it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 20:35:14 GMT
Number of goalie stats is good IMO but if we want to push down bulk goalies, cut out the total saves.
Something I'm considering is 3 goalies per team, 16 teams, 48 goalies. When injuries occur, there's 12 back ups sitting around, and all the prospects, so no certainty you can meet starts if something goes south injury wise.
To me, cutting prospect age to 25 (and reevaluating GP) is the most viable option.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 20:46:46 GMT
Peter, I'm not sure I follow you on your backup goalie math.
3 goalies per team = 48 goalies 31 NHL teams = 62 goalies Out of the 14 backups left on the wire, how many would still be prospect eligible? Maybe a handful, especially if the prospect age was reduced to 25. So if we were to implement Josh's first 2 suggestions, there would presumably be at least 7 or 8 backup goalies on the wire (not prospect eligible) available for a team if injuries happened. I guess it could get tight if a bunch of goalies got injured at the same time, but I don't really see how that would be any more difficult than currently (where it is impossible to pick up goalies on the wire) to meet goalie starts.
But maybe I'm misinterpreting what you were getting at...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 20:58:43 GMT
Peter, I'm not sure I follow you on your backup goalie math. 3 goalies per team = 48 goalies 31 NHL teams = 62 goalies Out of the 14 backups left on the wire, how many would still be prospect eligible? Maybe a handful, especially if the prospect age was reduced to 25. So if we were to implement Josh's first 2 suggestions, there would presumably be at least 7 or 8 backup goalies on the wire (not prospect eligible) available for a team if injuries happened. I guess it could get tight if a bunch of goalies got injured at the same time, but I don't really see how that would be any more difficult than currently (where it is impossible to pick up goalies on the wire) to meet goalie starts. But maybe I'm misinterpreting what you were getting at... Haha sorry writing this from my phone at work. I'll write it better tonight. I also forgot we have a 31st team. Really my only worthwhile contribution is I think prospect age should be reduced to 25.
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Post by Ken - Winnipeg on Apr 27, 2017 0:57:08 GMT
Frigging with quantity and age restrictions and the likes doesn't change the underlying issue that the legacy rules of this league over weight the value of goalies by over 300% of their real world market value. It won't solve the problem LV brought up about the difficulty in making goalie trades. The current weighting is just un-hockey like, from an empirical and evidence-based perspective. Worse, it limits trade activity, excessively punishes mistakes, and lengthens rebuilds. In a cap league, the cap restrictions at least offer some moderation, but the DHL never even had that from the start. We played by Ty's rules, so here we are.
I've been a goalie leader, goalie loser, and in between since Day 1 of the DHL and complained about it the whole time. Maybe under new management someone will have the vision to reduce the goalie point categories weight by 1 and increase the skaters by at least one...that would still grossly overweight goalie values vs real life to the point of comedy, but it would be a step in the right direction and enable increased goalie-trade activity, overall trade activity, and allow for accelerated rebuilds, and enhance the league overall. Anything else is playing the hope game. It'll work once in awhile and we'll point to the exception as evidenced but in the main it's ineffective. Why bother?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 2:31:50 GMT
i would tend to agree that some action should be taken on freeing up goalies on the wire. you lose a goalie mid season and your choices are getting man raped prison style via trade or go without one and end your season... theres no waiver wire option even for the worst back up goalies in the league. we should work here in this thread to implament something.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 15:50:53 GMT
this is my view in all this:
1. Limit teams to 3 goalies max on their main roster including on the bench. (I'm not sure if this is already a rule) NO, THERE IS STRATEGY INVOLVED IN THIS. HAVING MORE GOALIES LIMITS YOUR SKATERS AND VICE VERSA. IF YOU LIMIT THE THE GOALIES TO A CERTAIN AMOUNT THEN TEAMS WILL GRAB SKATERS TO FILL THE SPOT THEREFORE RESULTING IN EVEN MORE GARBAGE ON THE WAIVER WIRE TO CHOOSE FROM FOR SKATERS. IT GOES BOTH WAYS WHEN YOU PUT A MAX. ROSTER.
2. As mentioned before on a different thread, lower the age of the goalie prospects to 25. YES, I WOULD BE OPEN TO THIS CHANGE FOR BOTH GOALIES & SKATERS.
3. A 3 goalie prospect max NO, THIS IS RIDICULOUS LOL. THOUGH I DO AGREE SOME TEAMS HAVE HOARDED A TON OF GOALIES WHICH IS NOT RIGHT EITHER. I SAY 5 MAX. GOALIE PROSPECTS WOULD BE IDEAL
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 18:09:42 GMT
this is my view in all this: 1. Limit teams to 3 goalies max on their main roster including on the bench. (I'm not sure if this is already a rule) NO, THERE IS STRATEGY INVOLVED IN THIS. HAVING MORE GOALIES LIMITS YOUR SKATERS AND VICE VERSA. IF YOU LIMIT THE THE GOALIES TO A CERTAIN AMOUNT THEN TEAMS WILL GRAB SKATERS TO FILL THE SPOT THEREFORE RESULTING IN EVEN MORE GARBAGE ON THE WAIVER WIRE TO CHOOSE FROM FOR SKATERS. IT GOES BOTH WAYS WHEN YOU PUT A MAX. ROSTER.
2. As mentioned before on a different thread, lower the age of the goalie prospects to 25. YES,I WOULD BE OPEN TO THIS CHANGE FOR BOTH GOALIES & SKATERS. 3. A 3 goalie prospect max NO, THIS IS RIDICULOUS LOL. THOUGH I DO AGREE SOME TEAMS HAVE HOARDED A TON OF GOALIES WHICH IS NOT RIGHT EITHER. I SAY 5 MAX. GOALIE PROSPECTS WOULD BE IDEAL I like your ideas Armando, except for the 1st one.... a 3 goalie max on an NHL roster will cripple teams under certain scenarios which do come up year to year.... I believe that how a team wants to diversify his players on his roster should be an organizational decision.... but we could have that free will under stricter prospect eligibility rules.. such as an age and game reduction... as well as a 3 to 5 goalie max in the minors.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 19:07:48 GMT
this is my view in all this: 1. Limit teams to 3 goalies max on their main roster including on the bench. (I'm not sure if this is already a rule) NO, THERE IS STRATEGY INVOLVED IN THIS. HAVING MORE GOALIES LIMITS YOUR SKATERS AND VICE VERSA. IF YOU LIMIT THE THE GOALIES TO A CERTAIN AMOUNT THEN TEAMS WILL GRAB SKATERS TO FILL THE SPOT THEREFORE RESULTING IN EVEN MORE GARBAGE ON THE WAIVER WIRE TO CHOOSE FROM FOR SKATERS. IT GOES BOTH WAYS WHEN YOU PUT A MAX. ROSTER.
2. As mentioned before on a different thread, lower the age of the goalie prospects to 25. YES,I WOULD BE OPEN TO THIS CHANGE FOR BOTH GOALIES & SKATERS. 3. A 3 goalie prospect max NO, THIS IS RIDICULOUS LOL. THOUGH I DO AGREE SOME TEAMS HAVE HOARDED A TON OF GOALIES WHICH IS NOT RIGHT EITHER. I SAY 5 MAX. GOALIE PROSPECTS WOULD BE IDEAL I like your ideas Armando, except for the 1st one.... a 3 goalie max on an NHL roster will cripple teams under certain scenarios which do come up year to year.... I believe that how a team wants to diversify his players on his roster should be an organizational decision.... but we could have that free will under stricter prospect eligibility rules.. such as an age and game reduction... as well as a 3 to 5 goalie max in the minors. biz, i think you misunderstood what i was saying about number 1 or maybe i didnt elaborate it correctly. i agree we SHOULDNT have a max. on goalies. as managers we should have the right to diversify which players to have on our roster whether its 2, 3, 4 or even 5 goalies.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 19:17:09 GMT
Armando's opinions and answers are in the red!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 19:21:09 GMT
Armando's opinions and answers are in the red! Ahhhhhhh... than it looks like I agree completely with you Armando!
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Post by Chris - Montreal on Apr 28, 2017 19:27:46 GMT
I'm not sure why there are goalie issues. Shouldn't teams be able to do what they want? If I want to carry 7 centers, that is my problem, just like if I wanted to carry 3-4 goalies..
There are always trades that can be made. When I started here, two years ago, I had Fleury/Elliot/Chad Johnson as my three goalies. I didn't like them so I did what it took to get better, even if if meant adding good forwards to the deal.
As for the prospects, we all have the choice to draft/trade/waiver which/how many goalies we carry on our farm team. I traded for a lot of mine.
Didn't we all know the value of goalies when we first started and were given the settings of the league?
I find it unfair to start switching it all up now. This is a Dynasty league with a minor league system. I lot of the decisions made here were with many years of advance in mind.
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Post by Garrett - St. Louis on Apr 28, 2017 22:38:16 GMT
Ya I don't like limiting goalies to 3. For awhile I had all backups and had to run 4 goalies to barely squeak by min starts. Also don't like putting caps on G prospects. I wouldn't mind changing the prospect age. It benefited me this year as I was able to send Anders Nilsson up and down, but Nilsson is in no way still a prospect in real life lol. He has been in the NHL/AHL/KHL since 2011.
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Post by Ken - Winnipeg on Apr 28, 2017 22:41:29 GMT
I'm not sure why there are goalie issues. Shouldn't teams be able to do what they want? If I want to carry 7 centers, that is my problem, just like if I wanted to carry 3-4 goalies.. There are always trades that can be made. When I started here, two years ago, I had Fleury/Elliot/Chad Johnson as my three goalies. I didn't like them so I did what it took to get better, even if if meant adding good forwards to the deal. As for the prospects, we all have the choice to draft/trade/waiver which/how many goalies we carry on our farm team. I traded for a lot of mine. Didn't we all know the value of goalies when we first started and were given the settings of the league? I find it unfair to start switching it all up now. This is a Dynasty league with a minor league system. I lot of the decisions made here were with many years of advance in mind. Starting with Fleury and Elliot who were two of the better fantasy goalies is a lot better than starting with say Cam Ward, and whoever the Winnipeg duo today is. A lot of teams would have taken Fleury and Elliott of your hands Point is not everyone starts at the same position and it absolutely isn't easy to just trade your way out of it. You can get lucky and find a bad GM to partner with, but we've weeded those guys out finally, or acquire a Bernier and watch him get traded to Anaheim and have a lights out 2nd half (but you could hardly take credit for that string of luck ) Overcoming goaltending is certainly nowhere near as easy as any other position, or any combination of 3 other positions. Goalie values are so grossly inflated that GMs demand values that force a team to choose between 4 years of losing because their goaltending isn't contender grade, or 4 years of losing because everything else is depleted. You might make the playoffs but that's a poor benchmark. Over the years the consequence of injury or bad luck leading to bad goaltending forced many a GM's hand. Then the goalie hoarding and ransom prices became an issue. You can't blame GM's for their behaviour - it's the system that encourages it, they're just doing what's best for them. But it doesn't make the league good overall, or bear any resemblance to real NHL values. We can either do something about it and make the league better - or ask how does this affect my team and just ignore it. I don't think it's immediately obvious to everyone how ridiculous the disproportionate weighting is vs real life. NHL teams could spend 40% or more of their cap space on goalies....but the real market value - what the NHL knows goalies are worth is closer to 8%. Read that again. The DHL values them at 33%. That's compounded even more when you consider the # of skaters available vs goalies. It's absurd. I once asked Ty why, and he basically said Yahoo had the categories, so we should use'em...brilliant logic. A series of incremental changes over time to bring that down could be done in a way that doesn't adversely affect teams and gives them time to make deals. Knocking one goalie category out and replacing it with a skater stat won't turn the league upside down. And I'm just glad we can actually have these chats without getting secret PMs from the moderators complaining about the exchange of ideas. Looking forward to DHL 2.0
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Post by Chris - Montreal on Apr 28, 2017 22:52:46 GMT
Feb 01, 2016:
New York and Winnipeg have the following blockbuster to announce:
New York trades:
Shea Weber David Krejci Kari Lehtonen Jonathan Bernier
Winnipeg trades:
Sergei Bobrovsky Frederick Andersen Joonas Korpisalo 2017 3rd (WPG)
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Post by Chris - Montreal on Apr 28, 2017 22:58:31 GMT
Feb 01, 2016: New York and Winnipeg have the following blockbuster to announce: New York trades: Shea Weber David Krejci Kari Lehtonen Jonathan Bernier Winnipeg trades: Sergei Bobrovsky Frederick Andersen Joonas Korpisalo 2017 3rd (WPG) Ken, I love ya man, but just one year ago, you took a gamble, went for the win, and acquired both goalies from a top Dallas team...it ended up being the wrong gamble but just one season later, you would have had two top starters on two good, young teams in the NHL...you would have never been in the position to pay a random for a goalie today if it wasn't for your gamble, just one year ago...
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Post by Chris - Montreal on Apr 28, 2017 22:59:20 GMT
randsom
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Post by Ken - Winnipeg on Apr 28, 2017 23:01:00 GMT
Feb 01, 2016: New York and Winnipeg have the following blockbuster to announce: New York trades: Shea Weber David Krejci Kari Lehtonen Jonathan Bernier Winnipeg trades: Sergei Bobrovsky Frederick Andersen Joonas Korpisalo 2017 3rd (WPG) If you're going to remain objective you should post the goalie deals I made and won as well. I wasn't getting any great offers for Andersen because everyone knew he'd back up Gibson, and needed to deal Bobrovsky and shoe up other positions during his injury plagued season (the kind many don't recover from ) for a playoff shot. I'm not ashamed I went for it. Stay classy.
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Post by Ken - Winnipeg on Apr 28, 2017 23:06:45 GMT
You're trying to make it about me but I'm bringing objective facts. It'd be way easier to just quit the league if I was crying about this, and I'll remain no matter what - I've been here since day 1. I'm not too concerned about Dallas recovering now that they've committed to defence oriented coach - hey it can't get worse and I'm a front runner for most improved goaltending already But I wanted these rules changes when I had Brodeur and Niemi in their primes before you were here, Bobrovsky, and overachieving Pavelecs and Masons, and others. Etc. I just hate the overweighting and it's detrimental to league activity. So far your only point is, I've got good goalies, don't want rules to hurt me.
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Post by Chris - Montreal on Apr 28, 2017 23:08:05 GMT
I agree Ken and don't blame you for doing what you had to do. I would have done the same. Just saying that you wouldn't have been in this position today, that's all.
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Post by Ken - Winnipeg on Apr 28, 2017 23:08:54 GMT
I agree Ken and don't blame you for doing what you had to do. I would have done the same. Just saying that you wouldn't have been in this position today, that's all. I'm not complaining about my position. I didn't even bring it up.
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Post by Chris - Montreal on Apr 28, 2017 23:12:56 GMT
You're trying to make it about me but I'm bringing objective facts. It'd be way easier to just quit the league if I was crying about this, and I'll remain no matter what - I've been here since day 1. I'm not too concerned about Dallas recovering now that they've committed to defence oriented coach - hey it can't get worse and I'm a front runner for most improved goaltending already But I wanted these rules changes when I had Brodeur and Niemi in their primes before you were here, Bobrovsky, and overachieving Pavelecs and Masons, and others. Etc. I just hate the overweighting and it's detrimental to league activity. So far your only point is, I've got good goalies, don't want rules to hurt me. Yes and no...it is more, I've got good goalies, and I did what I had to do to get them due to our rules...
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Post by Chris - Montreal on Apr 28, 2017 23:15:09 GMT
That said, I really don't like arguing...it is not my style! I really like and respect you and I am already feeling uneasy about this conversation! Save that for Armando, lol
I'm just stating my point of view, as you are.
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Post by Ken - Winnipeg on Apr 28, 2017 23:21:03 GMT
You're trying to make it about me but I'm bringing objective facts. It'd be way easier to just quit the league if I was crying about this, and I'll remain no matter what - I've been here since day 1. I'm not too concerned about Dallas recovering now that they've committed to defence oriented coach - hey it can't get worse and I'm a front runner for most improved goaltending already But I wanted these rules changes when I had Brodeur and Niemi in their primes before you were here, Bobrovsky, and overachieving Pavelecs and Masons, and others. Etc. I just hate the overweighting and it's detrimental to league activity. So far your only point is, I've got good goalies, don't want rules to hurt me. Yes and no...it is more, I've got good goalies, and I did what I had to do to get them due to our rules... Exactly. But since we know they're not permanent, the question is would we be better off with something else? That's been the problem discussing goalies since day 1. Because they're 4 or 5 times overweighted, everyone is super sensitive and protective and just resorts to " he only wants that because of his situation". Nobody gives a shit about the Centre issue right now, cause it's overall impact is quite small. The ultimate question to answer what is right here is just, if we were starting the DHL today, would we weight goalies 33% of all scoring categories? I hope our exchange has at least raised some awareness to the issue.
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Post by Ken - Winnipeg on Apr 28, 2017 23:25:07 GMT
That said, I really don't like arguing...it is not my style! I really like and respect you and I am already feeling uneasy about this conversation! Save that for Armando, lol I'm just stating my point of view, as you are. No worries on my end. But don't be bad mouthing my OG DHLer Armando.
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Post by Ken - Winnipeg on Apr 28, 2017 23:26:37 GMT
Kinda weird. I joined the league before my twins were born. 6-year b-day party tomorrow. I feel old.
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Post by Chris - Montreal on Apr 28, 2017 23:28:43 GMT
Kinda weird. I joined the league before my twins were born. 6-year b-day party tomorrow. I feel old. Maybe that is why you are grumpy? haha, sorry buddy, it was too easy. I agree with you on that Ken, if the DHL started fresh today, I would have never made goalies as important as they are...that we can agree on..
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